Traci Madson Interview (Part 1): From “Old-School Trainer” to “Vicktory Dog” Rescuer and P+ Advocate | Pupford

Traci Madson is a CPDT-KA dog trainer who also holds memberships and certifications in aggression training and is an AKC evaluator. She has been training dogs for over 15 years.

Traci is the lead trainer for the Potty Training Course and Barking Solutions, both part of the Pupford Academy.

Her story showcases an amazing journey of continual learning and being involved in her community with rescues and other organizations. We also discuss her experience in rescuing a Michael Vick dog, or "Vicktory" dog.

Learn more about Traci and reach out to her on her website: https://threelittlepits.com/

Keep an eye out for Part 2 of Traci's story coming out in the next week or so!

*Disclaimer: Traci Madson is now a 100% advocate for Positive Reinforcement training methods. If you only listen to the first 5 minutes, you may be confused :)

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Full Transcript of Traci Madson Interview (Part 1)

Devin Stagg:
Hello everybody and welcome to today's episode of the Perfect Pup podcast. I am super excited for today's episode. For today's episode, we're going to be interviewing Traci Madson, who is a positive reinforcement certified dog trainer and going over her story and the really amazing experiences that she's had going from more old school style training and getting involved with some of the Michael Vick rescue dogs, and now having her own, running training classes and running her own company and going over her history. So, we're super excited to have you on here, Traci. Thanks for coming on today.

Traci Madson:
Thank you for having me. I'm excited. I love talking about my dogs. It's my favorite thing to talk about.

Devin Stagg:
I know, right? There's nothing better than talking about your dogs, right?

Traci Madson:
Yeah.

Devin Stagg:
I'll have to make sure this episode doesn't go three hours long just because we could do that if we wanted to.

Traci Madson:
Yeah, you'll have to cut me off.

Devin Stagg:
Yeah, like I said, I'm super excited.

Devin Stagg:
Just a little brief history. So, my name is Devin. I work at Pupford, and we started working with Traci a few months ago, and worked on some courses with her that you've maybe seen, and she's in our private Facebook community, in there answering questions from time to time. She's done a Facebook Live or two. When I first heard Traci's story, I really just thought, "This is a story people really need to hear," because it really is quite the journey that you've been through. So, let's just dive right into it. So, what made you originally get into dog training? How did you first get started with training dogs?

Traci Madson:
So, I moved to rural Utah and I had an interest in doing search and rescue. Specifically, I wanted to work a search and rescue dog. So I joined our search and rescue. I think I was the second female to join, and up here it's like the good old boy type of thing, so it was really hard. I started training one of my dogs that I had who was a pointer, so he had a really good nose, but he did not have the drive. And, one of our trainers at the time said that he could get a dog for me from Canada that had failed cop school because he had the drive but he wouldn't bite. Dogs that don't hold a bite but have drive make really good search and rescue dogs because we actually don't want them to bite.

Traci Madson:
So, I was able to obtain that dog from Canada and we formed a search and rescue dog team up where I live, and so I started training with other search and rescue trainers, and we trained a lot with law enforcement because the training is the same. It's just that the reward is different. So, our dogs will search and search and search for a Kong, and their dogs search for the bite or to play with a toy that smells like the drug. Other than doing basic obedience with my dogs growing up, this was my first experience with training dogs.

Traci Madson:
So, we learned traditional training. We used choke collars first. We used shock collars, electric collars. We did things called alpha rolls, where you take a dog by the scruff and flip them on their back until they submit. And, that's how I learned so I just thought that's just what you do. I have a really, really good friend now that says ... Now, looking back, I feel bad that I subjected my dog to this, and she said, "People do the best with what they know." And, I've used that so much now with my clients is you do the best with the knowledge you have. But, that's basically how I got into it.

Devin Stagg:
That's super interesting. I find that really interesting, too, that the search and rescue and the cop dog training is super similar. I never knew that. So, when it was being taught to you, in the moment, did you have any thoughts of like, "Oh, this seems mean."? Or, was it more of just, "These guys are the experts. I'm going to just listen to what they say," and it seems to work kind of thing? What was that like?

Traci Madson:
Yeah, I mean it was hard for me. In fact, I really resisted it putting a shock collar on my dog. They had to put it on my arm. They put it on my arm and they said, "This is all your dog is feeling. It's like putting a battery on your tongue." They way they justified it is these are really tough dogs. We're working German Shepherds and Dutch Shepherds and things like that, so these are very high praise drive dogs, and you have to use these methods to get these dogs to work. So, they put it on my arm and I'm like, "Okay, it doesn't hurt." It is like putting a battery, when you touch your tongue to a battery. So, it wasn't really what I wanted to do but I could see okay, if I want my dog to listen, I'm going to have to use this. You justify it in your mind. And, that's what I did.

Devin Stagg:
No, I get what you mean. The justification, because when we first got our puppies, we went to a group class and they were like, "Okay, you have to use ..." what do they call it? Like a choke chain essentially. They had a prettier word for it. I remember my wife and I feeling weird about it, but thinking, "Well, they're the professionals. Their dogs seem well behaved so I'll go with it." With that ... I don't know, it's a tough question, but do you feel like you still had a good relationship with your dog? Was your dog obedient? Did your dog listen well? And, how did your dog perform as a search and rescue dog? What was that like?

Traci Madson:
I mean, he was so obedient and it was explained to me after that sometimes these methods do work. It depends on the dog, and so that's what makes it hard for some people to you is that they're like, "Well, but look how obedient this dog is." It depends on the dog because sometimes it does work. This dog would turn on a dime. If I said, "Leave it" or "Come," he would turn on a dime. He was very, very obedient and I probably had one of the best relationships that I've ever had with a dog, which is what led me into that next phase of my life because that dog went ... In fact, when I went through my divorce, I'm like, "You can take anything you want except the dog. That's the only thing I want is the dog."

Traci Madson:
And, when I had to retire him and he got older, my parents were actually worried about how I was going to handle it when he passed away. So they're the ones that said, "We're thinking you should maybe get another dog so you have a dog when Dakota dies." Because, he went to work with me. He went everywhere with me. I had such a good relationship with him. So, that's what's really hard about it is that sometimes those methods do work, but more often than not, I've seen them not work.

Devin Stagg:
Well, and I think one of the important things there is your situation is so different compared to the people are going to a group class one time and they get taught by someone who maybe isn't that skilled with these aversive methods. Because like you said, I think in some unique circumstances and with certain dogs, it can work but the thing that I think, and you probably agree with this, is you have to have that consistency and level of expertise from the people who are teaching you how to do it, and that's often where I think your everyday dog parent who gets a dog and they go learn for a couple hours about a choke chain or an E-collar, and then they go home and just fumble through it on their own, they create much more problems down the road, just because they don't have that expertise or someone who's there coaching them consistently.

Traci Madson:
Right, and now I get a lot of people calling me that have gone to an adversive trainer like that with a dog that is very shy and shut down, and those are the last kind of dogs that you ever want to put a shock collar on because it's just going to make it worse.

Devin Stagg:
For sure.

Traci Madson:
It does more harm and more damage to them than anything.

Devin Stagg:
Interesting. Well, that's a good kind of segue ... It's a sad segue into what I wanted to ask you about next. Like I mentioned in the intro, you were involved, you actually got one of the dogs from the Michael Vick raid. For those who aren't familiar, brief overview. Michael Vick was an NFL player who was running an underground and illegal dog fighting basically company essentially and did jail time. And, maybe you can explain that a little bit more, too, but that's what I want to focus on right now is how did you originally hear about the whole ... because, obviously when they did the raid on his compound, there was a lot of dogs there and they needed homes. How did you originally hear about the whole Michael Vick situation? How did you originally get involved?

Traci Madson:
So, I don't follow sports and I didn't know who Michael Vick was. So when my parents said, "You should probably start looking at getting another dog," I got on the internet and I somehow managed to get on Best Friend's website and up popped this picture of this little red pit bull. And previous, I had always been very skeptical about pit bulls because I believed everything I heard on the news. In fact, when I was dating my husband at the time, his dad had a pit bull, and I remember having to go and meet parents and I'm like, "Do not leave me alone with this dog because they're unpredictable and everything." He's like, "Oh, my dad's dog is so gentle." I just believed everything that I heard. Then, my next door neighbors came home with a pit bull, and I ended up falling in love with that dog.

Traci Madson:
So, every other day I'm like, "If you don't want your dog, I'll take him." And, it just changed my whole perception and I just fall in love with that breed. I honestly thought I would have German Shepherds for the rest of my life. So, when this little red pit bull popped up, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I want that dog." So, I started reading about the whole Michael Vick thing and it just broke my heart and I thought, "I'm single, I don't have kids. I could really give a good home to one of these dogs. I've got experience with training." I mean, at that point, I had been training dogs for eight years and honestly, I took a lot of flack for wanting to adopt a dog like that. My parents tried to talk me out of it.

Devin Stagg:
Interesting.

Traci Madson:
Of course, I stopped listening to my parents a long time ago. So the next thing I know, I'm getting a call from my brother and my brother is saying, "Okay, so mom and dad called and wanted me to call you. What are you thinking? Are you sure? You're not really capable of handling a dog like this." I just felt it was something that I really wanted to do, and I had a good friend that actually gave me a good chewing out. She was like, "You have no business adopting a dog like this. You don't know what you're doing, what you're getting into." I didn't listen to any of them, so I called Best Friends and I said, "Are these dogs adoptable? What do I need to do?"

Traci Madson:
It was like adopting a child. I had to go through an application, process, a background check, a credit check. They come in, inspect your home. I had to get letters of reference, and then I called them every two weeks to make sure that they didn't forget about me. And so, they finally said, "If it's just a pit bull you want, we have one that's here that has kennel stress, really needs a good home. Do you want to come and meet him?" So I said, "Sure." I drove down the six hours with my German Shepherd, and we met this tan brindle pit bull. We did a sleepover and I fell in love with him, and I said, "Yeah, I'll take him but if I adopt him, can I still have one of the Michael Vick dogs?"

Traci Madson:
And, they said yes, but at that time, none of them were ready for adoption yet. So, I adopted Tacoma and about two months later, my Shepherd passed away. He was 12 at that time. He had cancer, so he passed away. Then in January, the first Michael Vick dog was ready for adoption, and I honestly think that they gave her to me just to get rid of me because I was hounding them all the time.

Devin Stagg:
You were being persistent, right?

Traci Madson:
Yeah, so I went down with Tacoma and we met Halle, and Halle was very, very shy with people. Very shutdown and shy with people, but she immediately bonded with Tacoma. Yeah, so I adopted ... Well, in between that, I really had my heart set on little red who was the first picture that I saw that got me on this whole journey. But then after I adopted Tacoma, I said, "You guys know Tacoma and you know all the Vicktory dogs." They didn't like calling them Vick dogs, so they changed the name to Vicktory dogs.

Devin Stagg:
I like that.

Traci Madson:
Yeah., so I said, "You know all the dogs, so I'm going to let you guys pick the dog that you think is going to be best suited for our situation." So, they picked Halle and I went down and met her, and she was very shy with me, didn't really want anything to do with me, but she was there with her trainer and the adoption manager and Tacoma was running around, and she jumped off the box that she was on and started playing with Tacoma immediately. So, I adopted her. There was a court order with all these dogs that we had to work with a positive reinforcement trainer, and I said, "Great, I have no idea what that means but I've been training dogs for eight years, so if you tell me what to do, I can probably do it."

Traci Madson:
They said, "Well, it's a little different. It's specialized. We'll help you find a trainer." So, they found a gal by the name of Skye Poitras in Salt Lake and she started working with me and we became really good friends. In fact, it's because of her work with me and Halle that I decided to go into training myself. But, the cool thing with this is that number one, if I would have done the things that I had learned at the search and rescue training on Halle, it never would have worked. I mean, she was so shut down anyway. She didn't trust people. She was terrified of people, so any aversive training would have just shut her down more.

Traci Madson:
So, the science-based training and doing the desensitization & counter-conditioning, all that stuff that I didn't know is what we had to use with her to get her ... I mean, you think about a dog that's been basically tied to a wheel axle out in the middle of the woods for most of her life. We had to get her used to ... Every time I'd turn the ceiling fan on, she'd run out of the room. If I got my guitar out, she was terrified. Everything was new to her so we had to get her used to everything basically in my house.

Devin Stagg:
So, I have a real quick question. I don't know how much detail they gave you or not, but do you know what her exact situation was at the compound or how she was being ... I know that stuff is infuriating and it honestly makes me sad just to even think about it and talk about it, but do you what exactly she was being used for or what her experience was like when she was at the compound?

Traci Madson:
Yeah, so she was one of their breeding dogs. I mean, I know her intake picture, she was like 25 pounds so she was emaciated. She did have scars all up and down her front legs, but she didn't have scars on her face and her ears so we know she wasn't a bait dog. Plus the bait dogs, they usually filed down their teeth, but she was basically strapped to a rape stand and she was used for breeding.

Devin Stagg:
Geez.

Traci Madson:
But, she was really good with other dogs, so at Best Friends they actually used her to help some of the other shier dogs come out of their shell and socialize. But, we found that most of the dogs got along with other dogs. Some of the grand champion fighters didn't. They had to be an only dog, but a lot of the dogs ended up going to homes with other dogs and did fine.

Related Reading: How to Socialize an Adult Dog

Devin Stagg:
Interesting. And, one other things that I was curious on with ... I find that so interesting that there was a court order that you had to do positive reinforcement. Do you think was that Best Friends who was pushing that through to make sure because they understood the history and what had happened to those dogs and they needed to make sure? Do you know how that came to be that there was an actual court order that said you have to use positive reinforcement?

Traci Madson:
Yeah, that's a good question. I know there were several agencies involved with the rescue. There was Best Friends and BAD RAP were the two biggest ones, and I know they didn't want any of the dogs to end up in the wrong hands because for several years I wasn't even allowed to say to let anybody know where Halle lives.

Devin Stagg:
Oh, interesting.

Traci Madson:
Because, the street value of these dogs was so high that there were cases when Skye and I would do public appearances, fundraisers, we were on the news and I couldn't say where I live. I would just mention county or general area.

Devin Stagg:
The state. Yeah, yeah.

Traci Madson:
Yeah, we couldn't say where we lived. So, it was probably Best Friends that did that but I'm not positive.

Devin Stagg:
No, that's super interesting though. It's good that they understood, right? That they needed to go into the right homes. So, my next question, you already touched on this, but you said she was very, very shy around humans. Things like a fan, or even a guitar, because like you said, she's never seen any of these things her entire life. She's an adult age-ish now. So, what was that process like of basically rehabbing her and helping teach her to be a dog? How long did that take? What was that experience like?

Traci Madson:
Well it took several, several years. And I think this is one of the things that taught me patience, and I think this is because I'm not a patient person. I think this is one of the reasons that I really wanted to get into rescue. My favorite dogs to work with are like the feral dogs, the really shy and shut down dogs that we get from the reservations because the smallest, little things they do are the biggest victories. I remember it probably took three months for me to be able to walk Halle around the block with her pancaking. I remember the first time we walked around the loop without her pancaking ... She'd pancake when a car would go by and-

Devin Stagg:
Like just lay down and stop moving?

Traci Madson:
Oh, yeah. She would be terrified. I text Skye and I called the people down at ... Because, I kept in touch with the people down at Best Friends, and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, you guys, we actually just went all the way around the loop." It was three months. But, Skye worked with us for at least two months and we couldn't get Halle to do anything. She was so shut down and so shy. So, we just started working with Tacoma, and Tacoma had such a really good temperament that I actually wanted to train him to be a therapy dog because by now, my whole perception of pit bulls have changed so I wanted other people to see that yeah, they're not the dogs that you hear about on the news.

Devin Stagg:
Right.

Traci Madson:
So, I asked Skye if she could help me get him certified as a therapy dog. So, we started training Tacoma to do things, and all of a sudden one day, Halle saw us doing some easy hand targeting things with Tacoma and all of a sudden she just walks up to Skye and does a hand target. That one little thing, we were like, "Oh my gosh. Did you see what she just did?" It was so easy, but for her, it was so huge. At the time, I worked for a fire department and I would [inaudible 00:23:50] and all the guys would get down on her level and her tail was tucked, so anytime she would even just give a slight tail wag or take a treat out of their hand was huge for her.

Traci Madson:
Yeah, it was just very cool, and I still remember ... The two main training sessions that I remember with Skye, it was like Skye would touch my ceiling fan, I'd give a treat. She would touch it, I would give a treat, and then she would barely make it move. I'd give her a treat. Then, we'd bring my guitar out and just have Halle look at it, treat. Then, she would just pluck one string, treat. We would just go through this really slow process of getting her used to all of this, so it probably took months before I could actually bring it out and play without her being afraid of it.

Devin Stagg:
Yeah, that's such an interesting ... It really does make you think and get perspective, especially when people are adopting dogs that are rescues and you don't know their history, you don't know the background, it just takes a lot of patience. It takes a lot of work and it takes, like you said, the more science backed techniques of the counter-conditioning and the desensitization, and I think it's just such a good reminder for everyone's who's training, even if you just have a brand new puppy. I think in your mind you want things to happen overnight, or you have this mindset of, "Oh, I need to get my dog to this point by this certain day or by this age." And, it's just not how dogs work. Every dog is different, every situation is different. There's always different things that you have to do for each dog.

Devin Stagg:
And so, my question off of that, too, is you did many years of the more old school methods and then you got into training Halle and you were using the positive reinforcement. What makes you wen you get other dogs ... Or, you teach now, right? You're a trainer now. You have classes and you have your own clients. Why do you choose to teach positive reinforcement?

Traci Madson:
Mainly because I've seen ... One of the things I learned from Skye, and I've got other mentors, too, that I've taken classes from and studied under, is that I've seen how the science-based training, you can really increase and develop a bond with your dog and because I work full-time at a rescue, I see a lot of dogs that are just so ... Their start in life has not been good, including some of the ones that I've adopted. And, you really have to develop that bond and that trust with them. If you do old school type of training, that's just not going to happen. So, I'm just really passionate about building that trust, and it's based on science, so we know it works.

Traci Madson:
And, I've had a lot of clients come to me with dogs that it's like, "Oh, I did bootcamp and they put a shock collar on my dog and now my dog is aggressive." And, it's because dogs learn by association and if the timings not right and if it's not done properly, yeah, it can really mess up. And it's like, "Why would you want to use fear, intimidation or pain to train a dog when you can use positive, better methods and increase that bond?"

Devin Stagg:
And, still get the same end result.

Traci Madson:
Yes, and still get the same results. Yeah, exactly.

Devin Stagg:
Yeah, because I've been around two of your dogs and they're both super well behaved and the nicest dogs. I think you told me both of the ones I've been around had a tough background and a tough history. I think like you said, that's how I feel about it, too. Why do the one that involves fear? Just choose the one that's going to make your dog happier and feel more comfortable because I think when we take a step back and think about ourselves, how we were taught in school, maybe you had a teacher who was very authoritarian and any time you talked out of turn, they were yelling at you or making you feel bad, but then you had the other teachers in school who were nice, they would answer your questions, they would guide you through and help you feel like you were improving.

Devin Stagg:
For me, I look back on those two different types of teachers and in my mind, I felt like I just was learning better with the one who encouraged and helped me feel like I was on the right path versus the teachers who were yelling at you or making you feel bad.

Traci Madson:
Right, exactly.

Devin Stagg:
That's us humans, but dogs are so much similar in the sense. So, after training Halle and that process of multiple years of getting her to be more comfortable and being able to be around people and around different situations, real quick, where did you go after that because I know you said working with Skye, that made you want to start doing training on your own. What happened after your experience with Halle?

Traci Madson:
Well, from the time that I adopted Tacoma and Halle, and then I actually adopted a third dog from Best Friends. Jasmine, she was rescued from another dog fighting bust called The Ohio 200. She was a little pocket pittie. That got me in the rescue bug, so it's just like this is what I want to do. At the time, I had a really good job with good benefits, but I wasn't really happy doing it. I knew I wanted to be working with dogs, I wanted to be training. I wanted to really get involved in rescue.

Traci Madson:
In fact, Skye and I, and a couple other people, we started a pit bull rescue where we didn't really have the means to actually take in dogs, but we raised money for low and no-cost spay and neuter. We did training for people that couldn't afford it. We did education on the breed. We did fundraisers and stuff like that. And, I just always knew that I wanted to be involved in rescue and helping these dogs, and then one day, I said, "So, Skye, now that I've been working with you for three years, do you think I could actually do this?" And, she said, "Yes." And, I said, "Would you mentor me and help me?" And, she said, "Absolutely."

Traci Madson:
This whole process, adopting Halle and Tacoma, totally changed the course of my life.

Devin Stagg:
That's awesome. I can say just from my interactions with you, I know how much you love and care about dogs, and I think it's so important. There are unfortunately so many dogs out there who need the help and need the support systems around them and have come from tough situations. Another question I have ... We maybe just a time for a couple more, but what would be your biggest piece of advice to people who bring home a rescue dog or a dog that's shy, or the backgrounds unknown? If you could give one or two main pieces of advice, what would it be for people with rescue dogs, or who are looking to rescue?

Traci Madson:
My main advice for people is it seems like everybody wants the perfect dog, but really where we don't know the background and behavior is the science of one, so every dog is an individual. So, you can't compare dogs. You can't say, "Oh, my last dog was perfect. It did this, and this, and this." And, "My neighbor's dog is perfect. How come my dog isn't like this?" Some dogs really do have a rough start in life, and you have to celebrate every little advancement with them. Just like with Halle, it took her two months just to go touch Skye's hand and it took probably more than that for her to walk around the block with me, and those were huge milestones for her.

Traci Madson:
We celebrated those like, "Oh my gosh, did you see what she just did?" It was awesome. So, just celebrate those little tiny things and don't expect too much from them. Just celebrate the journey that you take with your dog and don't expect them to be the perfect dog in a month or two, because it's probably not going to happen, but you'll have a lot more fun and you'll develop such a good bond with your dog if you just enjoy the whole journey with them.

Devin Stagg:
I love that. I think that's great advice, and I think that applies even if you're starting at a brand new puppy. Just enjoy the experience because I'm sure you can relate to this, even with my two puppies that I raised, I look back and I was like, "Man, it was frustrating and it was hard, and cleaning up pee, and all the ..." They chewed up one of our tables. All the difficult things, but then you keep moving forward, you keep progressing and like you said, that bond that you can create with your dog is just so powerful. It's like nothing else out there. It really is, if you put the time in, you stay patient, it's so great.

Devin Stagg:
So maybe my last question here is you probably took a path that most people aren't going to take in regards to getting involved with rescues. You were involved with, whether it's good or bad, with some of the most famous dogs in a sense just because they came from the whole Michael Vick situation and that was so publicly well known. Most people aren't going to go that route, right? But, what would be your biggest piece of advice for people who want to get more involved with rescues, whether it's actually rescuing dogs or volunteering, because I know you have your dog training and your clients, but then you also work at a rescue organization ... Yeah, what would be your advice for people who want to get more involved on the rescue side of things?

Traci Madson:
Well, there are so many dogs and cats that need help. I'm allergic, so especially-

Devin Stagg:
To cats?

Traci Madson:
And, especially right now with the coronavirus, every time I sneeze or cough, people are like, "Oh my gosh.' I'm like, "It's okay. I just have allergies." I just brought a cat home, so I just take Zyrtec every day. But, there are so many people that love to just come and walk the dogs. We have some really great volunteers and come and just socialize with cats every day or they come walk our dogs. We have some that have allergies so they make dog toys for us. And, it is some of the most rewarding things because there's something about rescue dogs that they just know that you're there to help them, and they love you for it. It's just the most amazing feeling.

Traci Madson:
I can honestly say that even when I have a day off, I'm like, "Oh geez, I really wish I was at work today." I look forward to going to work every day. I love being home with my dogs, but I also miss ... Right now, most of our dogs are in foster and I miss our dogs. We have dogs there still. It's really rewarding to see the dogs that we work with in our behavior program, to see the changes and the advancements. But, people that want to get involved in rescue, there's always something you can do. We have amazing volunteers that make enrichment toys for us. They'll come in and fill paper cups with peanut butter and freeze them.

Traci Madson:
Whatever level you want to be involved in, you can be involved. There is a role for everybody.

Devin Stagg:
I love that. That's awesome. And, like you said, I think it's very, very rewarding. Whether it's helping people, but I think for some reason helping dogs, too, it's even more rewarding just because they're such good creatures, for lack of a better word. They're always happy to see people and they're just so grateful.

Devin Stagg:
But, I enjoyed hearing your story. I had already heard it briefly but I loved hearing it again. I love that, like you said, there's so much opportunity for us to number one, I think always be continually learning when it comes to our dogs and dog training. You were eight years of doing more of the old school styles and then making that transition and sticking with it. I think that's just such an important note for everybody and myself. Everybody's who's listening to this episode, it's like we can always continue learning more and improving how we communicate with our dogs and just becoming better at teaching them how to be good citizens in the world where they interact with humans.

Devin Stagg:
I really do appreciate you coming on, Traci. We'll have to do some more type of interviews like this, maybe go in depth on other topics, but I really, really appreciated having you on and hearing your story. Really appreciate it.

Traci Madson:
Yeah, thank you for having me. It was fun.

Devin Stagg:
Awesome. Well thank you, everybody, for listening. And, we will catch you on the next episode. And also, I will put a link to your website, Traci, just so that people can learn more about you. The full name is Three Little Pits ... Tell me the full name?

Traci Madson:
Three Little Pits, Positive Dog Training, but it's under ThreeLittlePits.com.

Devin Stagg:
Okay.

Traci Madson:
It's under construction right now.

Devin Stagg:
That's okay. I think most people's websites are always under some type of construction, right? You're always trying to get more things done.

Traci Madson:
Yeah. Luckily my web person right now is home doing nothing, so she's working on my page.

Devin Stagg:
That's awesome. I'll include a link to that in the show notes, and if you want to reach out to Traci and just give her a thanks or whatever, I'll have her website in there. But, thanks again so much, everybody, for coming and listening and we will catch you on the next episode.